Re: [NTLK] A few thoughts on Einstein (long)

From: Sonya Hipper (sonyalynn_at_earthlink.net)
Date: Mon Sep 13 2004 - 17:29:44 PDT


OK...couple responses.

First off, "my bad" re: Yopy. There was just nothing right in my face
on the product or specs pages that said anything about pen-based input,
but further digging verified that, yes, indeed, it's got it! I'm still
hesitant, tho, so long as the screen won't turn around and let it cover
the keyboard with the screen facing outward, Clié-style, allowing it to
most closely resemble a Newt. :-)

On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:18 PM, martyNT_at_barknaturalpet.com wrote:

> I think personally that it is best to not be married to a particular
> PDA (not yet at least), so it seems to me that trading off the speed
> of native code execution is worth it in order to retain options for
> the future. We don't want to move to a new PDA platform and then have
> that crap out too...

And this is why I should never try to post on a topic this complex at
night, while multitasking. DUH! This is absolutely, 100% true. More
flexibility in devices means more longevity (not to mention choice of
form factor)...even, dare I say, hardware-independent IMMORTALITY! ;-)

> Also I think it's good to think in terms of the time frame of this
> project (Einstein) and realize that PDA's available a couple of years
> from now are gonna be mighty powerful and shouldn't have a problem
> keeping a good speed while emulating the ARM instruction set.

What he said! Hell, the XScales are already over 600 MHz.

> I am also excited and drooling over the Escale update...

Me, too...esp. it'll sync Dates w/ iCal better than NewtSync (which
just did get much better w/ version 0.3.1...thanks, Chris! You *do*
know you rock, right?)

On Sep 13, 2004, at 12:48 AM, pguyot_at_kallisys.net wrote:
<snip>
> I would personally prefer a POSIX kernel and Einstein built at the
> top, either with JIT or with native execution.
>
> Soon, the Internet will transition to IPv6. We also need SSH and SSL.
> You simply cannot use hotspots in cafes in Paris on your Newton
> because it requires SSL.

Agreed. IPv6 and SSL/SSH support are crucial if the Newt is going to be
useful as much more than a glorified PIM and notepad. :-(

> Now, imagine that we have Einstein running on top of a modified Linux
> or NetBSD (my preference) core system. I say modified because if
> Einstein runs with native code, we'll have to modify the core system
> and somehow vampirise it, the platform would then be the core system +
> the Einstein runtime. So if we did so, we'd have SSH/SSL, IPv6 but
> also routing, 802.11g drivers and whatever is a pain to do on the
> Newton for free.

This argument sways me big-time, right along with the PDA variety
argument. Between those 2 arguments, if I were the one with the
decision in my hands, that's the one I'd make.

> Another option is JIT. JIT will mean a small performance hit, but much
> better portability. The performance hit won't be significant. And the
> thing could run on non ARM-based PDAs.

Better and better, although I have to ask. As I've been researching on
the Web, I've gotten a bit confused. Is XScale a subset or derivative
or descendant of ARM? If so, is it ARM compatible?

> And the interaction with the host OS will be much simpler. And we
> actually won't really depend on the host OS. But the integration might
> be less tight.

Paul, could you enlighten some of us poor beta-geeks as to how this
might manifest itself in a end-user's experience?

> While with native code on top of a POSIX core, the target PDA won't
> really run the host OS. We'll be able to make changes in the kernel to
> get a better power saving method. I mean, considering the changes that
> will be required in the kernel to get native code to work, it won't be
> much work to also improve power saving from how the Newton does it. Or
> if you prefer, it won't really be Einstein as a process on top of
> Unix. Instead, both systems would be intermixed and we could let
> NewtonOS drive some hardware processes such as putting the system to
> sleep.

To my inexperienced ears, this sounds a lot more difficult than running
an emulator in its own process, I have to say.

> Hardware integration would be even better if we simply ported NewtonOS
> to another platform. This is the third possibility we've been thinking
> about. The big drawback of this in my opinion is that we won't benefit
> from OSS drivers and hardware knowledge. In other words, what is great
> about NetBSD or Linux is that some people got it running on the PDAs.
> So they figured out how to interact with these PDA's hardware. If we
> do port NewtonOS, we'll have to look how they did it and duplicate
> their effort somewhat.

Yeah...I'm suspect it's the same for programmers and developers, but
one of the golden mantras of the SysAdmin world is "don't re-invent the
wheel." If we can take advantage of someone else's work on hardware
drivers and just write "hooks" for the NewtonOS and existing Newt
software packages designed to recognize that hardware's output (e.g.
Blunt, the WaveLAN driver, etc), that sounds like the solution at once
most economical of effort and broad in compatibility. Then, we can just
piggy-back on PDA-based builds of BSD or Linux, using any hardware they
already support. :-)

> Additionally, we'll have to modify the NewtonOS native runtime
> architecture to solve the SSH/SSL problem. And rewrite an IP stack.
> Two things I've considered in the past that are doable, but I'd prefer
> not to do them.

Yeah...this is a big argument for emulation over a full port.

> Please note, actually, that we probably won't start working on
> Einstein again right now. I personally want to release ATA Support 1.0
> first before resuming work on Einstein. It's been too long since this
> project was suspended. Then I want to release a fixed, working version
> of Escale with synchronization. And then, my plan is to use Einstein
> to fix the -10061 bug.

Paul, you know you're making me feel like a lazy, goldbricking bum,
right? *chuckles*

> Nicolas is very busy with the job that pays his rent at the moment and
> he seriously needs vacation. I wish him to be able to go to the South
> of France for a month as he planned in October.

Yeah, he does! After getting Einstein to where it is as of now, you
both deserve it. All expenses paid. Any multi-millionaires on the list
willing to bankroll these 2? ;-)

I'm just a poor, workin' technician, me! But hey, if I ever win the
Lotto...

-Sonya

==
     "I urge you all today, especially today during these
times of chaos and war, to love yourself without reservations
and to love each other without restraint. Unless you're into
leather. And then, by all means, use restraints."
                                                 —Margaret Cho

Sonya Hipper
sonyalynn_at_earthlink.net
AIM: SonyaLynn
Yahoo: thesonyalynn

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