Re: [NTLK] [OT] Football and nationalism

From: Joost van de Griek (
Date: Tue Jun 18 2002 - 17:00:34 EDT

Thank you, Michael. I could not have put it into words better myself.

It seems to me we all got our say, now, and since I'm not willing to risk
fellow billiard-ball-head and esteemed Newtonian Robert Benschop
unsubscribing from this list, I will (try to ;-) consider this thread
deceased as of now.

Joost van de Griek

On 2002-06-18 16:41, "Michael J. Hu=DFmann" <>

> ( wrote:
>> So we should put our ancestry out of mind and ignore the sacrifices
>> and achievements of our forebears? Let's stop the teaching of history
>> in schools.
> I don't quite follow your logic here. Refusing being proud of other
> people's achievements (or taking the blame for other's crimes, for that
> matter) in no way implies one should ignore the past. Obviously, one
> should not.=20
>> I am proud to be British and if I were Dutch or American or German I wou=
>> be proud of that too. Those who forget history are condemned forever
>> to repeat it.
> For example, I, as a German, cannot be proud of Goethe's and Mann's
> writings, Bach's and Beethoven's music, or Leibniz' and Einstein's
> science -- I didn't take any part in their achievements, and I'm not even
> a proper descendant -- if any of my own ancestors did anything
> particulary noteworthy, it failed to be recorded. And then, there's WW II
> and the holocaust: if I claim Bach and Einstein to be my ancestors, then
> what about the Nazis? I didn't take part in their crimes either, but
> wouldn't I have to take the good with the bad, if it comes to inheriting
> Germany's past? The holocaust is as much of a legacy as Goethe's "Faust",
> Bach's "Goldberg Variations", and Leibniz' Calculus are -- something to
> accept as part of my country's history, but not something to feel either
> guilty or proud of.
> But that's all I have to say on that matter, and I will keep quiet from
> now on.
> - Michael
> Michael J. Hussmann
> E-mail:
> WWW:

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