Re: [NTLK] OT: my sig

From: Philip Bennett (
Date: Tue Mar 26 2002 - 08:35:33 EST

Thanks, Jon. I understood all that. That's why I liked your sig. Okay, now,
everybody take a deep breath. Back to Newtons.....

> From: Jon Glass <>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:00:45 +0100
> To: Newtontalk <>
> Subject: Re: [NTLK] OT: my sig
> on 3/25/02 11:48 PM, Jeremy Bond Shepherd at wrote:
>> I don't. Religious proselytizing stinks no matter where it's done, but
>> particularly when it's so off-topic and repetitive as this sig is on the
>> Newtontalk list.
> Can I clarify what Adams was saying (since it was my sig that began this
> silly OT thread). Basically, if you will allow me to freely paraphrase it, a
> people that cannot control themselves, will be controlled externally through
> force. Self control is essential to self-government. (get it?) Morality and
> religion are essential elements of self-control. An irreligious and immoral
> person has no self-restraint, and lacks a motive to self restraint. A people
> that lack self-restraint are a danger to themselves and other societies.
> They will be controlled by the external means of force or tyranny.
> I would like to point out that the moral failures of even those leading
> proponents of morality and religion serve to help illustrate the necessity
> of government, and the need for moral restraint. For those who like to point
> out the moral failings of certain leaders, please remember that their
> failings serve as evidence that society has and needs those boundaries, not
> the contrary. Freedom is not about license to do anything you want, whenever
> you want, but about taking responsibility for your own actions, and being
> willing to face the consequences of those actions, whether for good or for
> ill. As a silly illustration. When somebody speeds, and gets a ticket, we
> don't scream for the speed limits to be removed. We say that if he had
> obeyed the law, he wouldn't have gotten a ticket. :-)
> The sad truth is, that most people who disapprove of religion are really
> opposed to any moral restraint. This is what they are really opposed to.
> They attack religion or religious people, but what they are really attacking
> is the idea of self control. People have always been immoral, and tended
> away from self-restraint. The moral restraint of society exists to control
> this excess. Unfortunately, it seems that in today's society, even the moral
> framework upon which society is based, even when individuals didn't, is
> crumbling. If so, where does that leave our society? Sure, those that don't
> want any moral restraint will rejoice, but for how long?
> There is also another item to consider. By telling someone that they cannot
> "proselytize," you are restricting their freedom, and are becoming a tyrant
> in a different way, but a tyrant nonetheless. In the end, you become the
> very thing you despise. :-) (Besides, how would we convert new converts to
> the Newton???!!!) (there, on topic)
>> I would hope that anyone seriously interested in the role of religion in
>> the founding of the U.S. government spend some time researching authors
>> beyond David Barton.
> Sorry for the long post I just wanted to explain the quote that seems to
> have started this OT discussion. If you are really interested in this topic.
> Don't read other authors (including David Barton--whoever he is), read the
> founding fathers in their entirety. They have a lot to say! And they won't
> twist their own words out of context, or try to make them say something they
> aren't saying. :-) That is why I quote them--so you will be spurred to dig
> further, or even (gasp) read them yourself. Besides, it's fun and
> entertaining... :-)
> P.S. Jeremy. If you really don't like my sigs, then filter me out. :-) I
> don't mind, really. :-)
> --
> -Jon Glass
> Krakow, Poland
> <>
> <>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
> --
> Read the List FAQ/Etiquette:
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